IMPORTANT EDITORIAL NOTE: This November 2008-February 2009 detailed history of the Pistons was actually produced in early March (of 2009) but not posted until now, in July 2009. To make a long story short, Quest was going through a major transformation for the better at the time, but some things got lost in the shuffle.
During at least the rest of July, we will be doing what we previously pledged we would never have to do again, which is posting content that was posted elsewhere many weeks ago. This is a bad habit that has proved to be tough to break, but break it we will.
New publishing rules going into effect will make it harder than ever for us to fall into the trap of posting content elsewhere and then not posting it here until after a delay that can be numerous weeks. In fact, these new rules are intended to reverse the bad habit. From now on, we will post content here, and then post it elsewhere only after at least one month, if at all. Only a small percentage of Quest content, roughly 25%, will be posted elsewhere after the delay of one month or more. The bottom line is that although you will still ocassionally see Quest content elsewhere, you have to bookmark and visit Quest or you will miss the great majority of Quest content.
With respect to this particular report, The March 2009 and April 2009 Pistons results were of course not available in early March. Also, the Real Player Rating system was fairly substantially improved since early March. Therefore, we are not now and will most likely not in the future be completing this month by month history of the Detroit Pistons. Quite honestly it's not a big deal that the March and April Pistons will never be detailed, because:
(a)The situation was so depressing that Allen Iverson, for all practical purposes, quit the team in late February and played in only 3 games during all of March and April! and because
(b)The Pistons overall tanked even worse in March and April than they did prior to that.
==========================
I made a sweet internet discovery on March 5, 2009. I found a place that archives who did what by the month This is very valuable, because it bridges the gap between mere game stats at the one extreme and cumulative season stats at the other extreme. Looking at how players have done by the month can give you extremely valuable information that you could not get otherwise. Both coaches and players can definitely be evaluated more accurately than before.
For example, remember at the beginning of the season, during November, Iverson was point guard for Detroit? With the month breakdown, you can see how he did while he was designated PG. And you can see how the other players did while he was PG. Then you can compare all of that to another month, January for example, when Iverson was 2-guard again.
The Pistons have made so many starting lineup and rotation changes this year that everyone's head is spinning. But I have just the medicine: monthly Real Player Ratings, which if you are smart will suggest reasons why some starting lineups and rotations were and are better than others.
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
DURING NOVEMBER 2008
Amir Johnson 0.830
Allen Iverson 0.753
Will Bynum 0.752
Rasheed Wallace 0.749
Tayshaun Prince 0.740
Rodney Stuckey 0.635
Jason Maxiell 0.629
Walter Hermann 0.628
Richard Hamilton 0.600
Kwame Brown 0.591
Aaron Afflalo 0.405
When using the ratings and the scale below, do not forget that the smaller the number of games included, the more a player may be above or below his long term career rating. For example, Amir Johnson was a star player during November 2008, but he may or may not be a star player for the season as a whole, and he may or may not be a star player for his career as a whole.
SCALE FOR REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect Player? Is there Such a Thing? 1.000 and more
Historic Super Star 0.950 and more
Super Star 0.850 0.949
A Star Player; An Extremely Good Starter 0.775 0.849
A Great Player; A Solid Starter 0.700 0.774
Major Role Player 0.650 0.699
Role Player 0.600 0.649
Minor Role Player 0.550 0.599
Very Minor Role Player 0.500 0.549
Poor Player at This Time 0.450 0.499
Very Poor Player at This Time 0.350 0.449
Extremely Poor Player at This Time / Disaster and less 0.349
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
DURING NOVEMBER 2008
Rasheed Wallace 364.90
Tayshaun Prince 359.05
Allen Iverson 305.05
Richard Hamilton 289.95
Jason Maxiell 168.70
Rodney Stuckey 154.25
Amir Johnson 147.05
Kwame Brown 105.45
Aaron Afflalo 96.85
Walter Hermann 86.10
Will Bynum 72.80
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
DURING NOVEMBER 2008
Amir Johnson 0.572
Kwame Brown 0.499
Rasheed Wallace 0.443
Allen Iverson 0.387
Will Bynum 0.377
Tayshaun Prince 0.304
Rodney Stuckey 0.295
Jason Maxiell 0.195
Richard Hamilton 0.155
Aaron Afflalo 0.121
Walter Hermann 0.093
DETROIT PISTONS
OFFENSE SUBRATING
All Tracked Offensive Actions
DURING NOVEMBER 2008
Will Bynum 0.535
Walter Hermann 0.535
Tayshaun Prince 0.490
Richard Hamilton 0.479
Allen Iverson 0.471
Amir Johnson 0.453
Jason Maxiell 0.437
Rodney Stuckey 0.430
Rasheed Wallace 0.366
Aaron Afflalo 0.287
Kwame Brown 0.242
PISTONS NOVEMBER 2008 GAMES
Sat, Nov 1 Washington W 117-109
Mon, Nov 3 @ Charlotte W 101-83
Wed, Nov 5 @ Toronto W 100-93
Fri, Nov 7 @ New Jersey L 96-103
Sun, Nov 9 Boston L 76-88
Tue, Nov 11 @ Sacramento W 100-92
Thu, Nov 13 @ Golden State W 107-102
Fri, Nov 14 @ LA Lakers W 106-95
Sun, Nov 16 @ Phoenix L 86-104
Wed, Nov 19 Cleveland W 96-89
Thu, Nov 20 @ Boston L 80-98
Sun, Nov 23 Minnesota L 80-106
Wed, Nov 26 NY Knicks W 110-96
Fri, Nov 28 Milwaukee W 107-97
Sun, Nov 30 Portland L 85-96
==================================================
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
DURING DECEMBER 2008
Rodney Stuckey 0.882
Allen Iverson 0.802
Antonio McDyess 0.698
Amir Johnson 0.673
Richard Hamilton 0.653
Rasheed Wallace 0.648
Tayshaun Prince 0.637
Jason Maxiell 0.452
Kwame Brown 0.439
Arron Afflalo 0.347
When using the ratings above and the scale below, do not forget that the smaller the number of games included, the more a player may be above or below his long term career rating. For example, Amir Johnson was a star player during November 2008, but he may or may not be a star player for the season as a whole, and he may or may not be a star player for his career as a whole.
SCALE FOR REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect Player? Is there Such a Thing? 1.000 and more
Historic Super Star 0.950 and more
Super Star 0.850 0.949
A Star Player; An Extremely Good Starter 0.775 0.849
A Great Player; A Solid Starter 0.700 0.774
Major Role Player 0.650 0.699
Role Player 0.600 0.649
Minor Role Player 0.550 0.599
Very Minor Role Player 0.500 0.549
Poor Player at This Time 0.450 0.499
Very Poor Player at This Time 0.350 0.449
Extremely Poor Player at This Time / Disaster and less 0.349
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
DURING DECEMBER 2008
Allen Iverson 383.35
Rodney Stuckey 375.90
Tayshaun Prince 335.85
Rasheed Wallace 258.05
Richard Hamilton 237.60
Antonio McDyess 164.85
Arron Afflalo 91.45
Jason Maxiell 76.60
Amir Johnson 71.45
Kwame Brown 30.60
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
DURING DECEMBER 2008
Amir Johnson 0.534
Kwame Brown 0.416
Rasheed Wallace 0.414
Allen Iverson 0.390
Rodney Stuckey 0.327
Tayshaun Prince 0.314
Antonio McDyess 0.307
Jason Maxiell 0.203
Richard Hamilton 0.141
Arron Afflalo 0.101
DETROIT PISTONS
OFFENSE SUBRATING
All Tracked Offensive Actions
DURING DECEMBER 2008
Rodney Stuckey 0.649
Richard Hamilton 0.547
Allen Iverson 0.521
Antonio McDyess 0.417
Tayshaun Prince 0.371
Amir Johnson 0.298
Rasheed Wallace 0.289
Jason Maxiell 0.251
Arron Afflalo 0.250
Kwame Brown 0.085
DECEMBER 2008 PISTONS GAMES
Tue, Dec 2 @ San Antonio W 89-77
Fri, Dec 5 Philadelphia L 91-96
Sun, Dec 7 @ NY Knicks L 92-104
Tue, Dec 9 @ Washington L 94-107
Fri, Dec 12 Indiana W 114-110
Sat, Dec 13 @ Charlotte W 90-86
Wed, Dec 17 Washington W 88-74
Fri, Dec 19 Utah L 114-120 OT
Sun, Dec 21 @ Atlanta L 78-85
Tue, Dec 23 Chicago W 104-98
Fri, Dec 26 Oklahoma City W 90-88
Sat, Dec 27 @ Milwaukee W 87-76
Mon, Dec 29 Orlando W 88-82
Wed, Dec 31 New Jersey W 83-75
===========================================
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
DURING JANUARY 2009
Will Bynum 0.889
Rodney Stuckey 0.729
Rasheed Wallace 0.687
Antonio McDyess 0.673
Tayshaun Prince 0.653
Kwame Brown 0.647
Jason Maxiell 0.638
Allen Iverson 0.637
Richard Hamilton 0.622
Amir Johnson 0.587
Arron Afflalo 0.238
When using the ratings above and the scale below, do not forget that the smaller the number of games included, the more a player may be above or below his long term career rating. For example, Amir Johnson was a star player during November 2008, but he may or may not be a star player for the season as a whole, and he may or may not be a star player for his career as a whole.
SCALE FOR REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect Player? Is there Such a Thing? 1.000 and more
Historic Super Star 0.950 and more
Super Star 0.850 0.949
A Star Player; An Extremely Good Starter 0.775 0.849
A Great Player; A Solid Starter 0.700 0.774
Major Role Player 0.650 0.699
Role Player 0.600 0.649
Minor Role Player 0.550 0.599
Very Minor Role Player 0.500 0.549
Poor Player at This Time 0.450 0.499
Very Poor Player at This Time 0.350 0.449
Extremely Poor Player at This Time / Disaster and less 0.349
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
DURING JANUARY 2009
Rodney Stuckey 351.05
Tayshaun Prince 333.45
Allen Iverson 299.15
Antonio McDyess 228.75
Rasheed Wallace 225.70
Richard Hamilton 178.80
Jason Maxiell 145.00
Amir Johnson 101.85
Kwame Brown 66.15
Arron Afflalo 48.50
Will Bynum 47.70
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
DURING JANUARY 2009
Kwame Brown 0.525
Amir Johnson 0.499
Rasheed Wallace 0.427
Antonio McDyess 0.379
Will Bynum 0.376
Allen Iverson 0.339
Tayshaun Prince 0.300
Rodney Stuckey 0.295
Jason Maxiell 0.183
Richard Hamilton 0.139
Arron Afflalo 0.014
DETROIT PISTONS
OFFENSE SUBRATING
All Tracked Offensive Actions
DURING JANUARY 2009
Will Bynum 0.680
Rodney Stuckey 0.529
Richard Hamilton 0.518
Jason Maxiell 0.457
Allen Iverson 0.413
Tayshaun Prince 0.404
Rasheed Wallace 0.317
Antonio McDyess 0.315
Kwame Brown 0.267
Amir Johnson 0.262
Arron Afflalo 0.230
PISTONS GAMES IN JANUARY 2009
Fri, Jan 2 Sacramento W 98-92
Sun, Jan 4 @ LA Clippers W 88-87
Wed, Jan 7 @ Portland L 83-84
Fri, Jan 9 @ Denver W 93-90
Sat, Jan 10 @ Utah L 82-99
Tue, Jan 13 Charlotte L 78-80
Wed, Jan 14 @ Indiana L 106-110 OT
Fri, Jan 16 @ Oklahoma City L 79-89
Sat, Jan 17 New Orleans L 85-91
Mon, Jan 19 @ Memphis W 87-79
Wed, Jan 21 Toronto W 95-76
Fri, Jan 23 Dallas L 91-112
Sun, Jan 25 Houston L 105-108
Wed, Jan 28 @ Minnesota W 98-89
Fri, Jan 30 Boston L 78-86
==================================================
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
DURING FEBRUARY 2009
Allen Iverson 0.789
Richard Hamilton 0.768
Antonio McDyess 0.733
Rasheed Wallace 0.719
Tayshaun Prince 0.640
Amir Johnson 0.583
Rodney Stuckey 0.439
Jason Maxiell 0.426
Walter Hermann 0.245
Arron Afflalo 0.131
When using the ratings above and the scale below, do not forget that the smaller the number of games included, the more a player may be above or below his long term career rating. For example, Amir Johnson was a star player during November 2008, but he may or may not be a star player for the season as a whole, and he may or may not be a star player for his career as a whole.
SCALE FOR REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect Player? Is there Such a Thing? 1.000 and more
Historic Super Star 0.950 and more
Super Star 0.850 0.949
A Star Player; An Extremely Good Starter 0.775 0.849
A Great Player; A Solid Starter 0.700 0.774
Major Role Player 0.650 0.699
Role Player 0.600 0.649
Minor Role Player 0.550 0.599
Very Minor Role Player 0.500 0.549
Poor Player at This Time 0.450 0.499
Very Poor Player at This Time 0.350 0.449
Extremely Poor Player at This Time / Disaster and less 0.349
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
DURING FEBRUARY 2009
Richard Hamilton 281.75
Antonio McDyess 275.20
Rasheed Wallace 266.20
Tayshaun Prince 262.85
Allen Iverson 241.95
Rodney Stuckey 132.15
Jason Maxiell 83.10
Amir Johnson 44.15
Walter Hermann 13.25
Arron Afflalo 10.75
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
DURING FEBRUARY 2009
Amir Johnson 0.508
Rasheed Wallace 0.417
Allen Iverson 0.385
Antonio McDyess 0.300
Tayshaun Prince 0.276
Rodney Stuckey 0.243
Walter Hermann 0.147
Jason Maxiell 0.145
Richard Hamilton 0.108
Arron Afflalo 0.049
DETROIT PISTONS
OFFENSE SUBRATING
All Tracked Offensive Actions
DURING FEBRUARY 2009
Richard Hamilton 0.698
Allen Iverson 0.513
Antonio McDyess 0.461
Tayshaun Prince 0.417
Rasheed Wallace 0.365
Rodney Stuckey 0.295
Amir Johnson 0.287
Jason Maxiell 0.283
Walter Hermann 0.098
Arron Afflalo 0.086
PISTONS GAMES IN FEBRUARY 2009
Sun, Feb 1 Cleveland L 80-90
Wed, Feb 4 Miami W 93-90
Sat, Feb 7 @ Milwaukee W 126-121 OT
Sun, Feb 8 Phoenix L 97-107
Tue, Feb 10 @ Chicago L 102-107
Wed, Feb 11 Atlanta L 95-99
Tue, Feb 17 Milwaukee L 86-92
Thu, Feb 19 San Antonio L 79-83
Sun, Feb 22 @ Cleveland L 78-99
Tue, Feb 24 @ Miami L 91-103
Wed, Feb 25 @ New Orleans L 87-90
Fri, Feb 27 @ Orlando W 93-85
===============================================
For reference, the ratings for all the 4 months combined into the 2008-09 ratings through Feb. 25 are here. Rodney Stuckey was .800 on Feb. 8 and dropped like a rock to .700 as of Feb. 25:
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
2008-09 REGULAR SEASON
THROUGH FEB. 25 2009
Allen Iverson† 0.744
Antonio McDyess 0.712
Rodney Stuckey 0.700
Rasheed Wallace 0.697
Amir Johnson 0.688
Tayshaun Prince 0.680
Richard Hamilton 0.638
Kwame Brown 0.580
Jason Maxiell 0.558
Arron Afflalo 0.321
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
2008-09 REGULAR SEASON
THROUGH FEB. 25 2009
Tayshaun Prince 1287.65
Allen Iverson† 1207.25
Rasheed Wallace 1088.90
Rodney Stuckey 994.85
Richard Hamilton 932.20
Antonio McDyess 651.20
Jason Maxiell 461.80
Amir Johnson 382.85
Arron Afflalo 256.20
Kwame Brown 215.45
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
2008-09 REGULAR SEASON
THROUGH FEB. 25 2009
Amir Johnson 0.534
Kwame Brown 0.495
Rasheed Wallace 0.426
Allen Iverson† 0.373
Antonio McDyess 0.331
Tayshaun Prince 0.304
Rodney Stuckey 0.294
Jason Maxiell 0.186
Richard Hamilton 0.135
Arron Afflalo 0.083
DETROIT PISTONS
OFFENSE SUBRATING
All Tracked Offensive Actions
2008-09 REGULAR SEASON
THROUGH FEB. 25 2009
Richard Hamilton 0.539
Rodney Stuckey 0.501
Allen Iverson† 0.480
Tayshaun Prince 0.427
Antonio McDyess 0.407
Jason Maxiell 0.374
Amir Johnson 0.335
Rasheed Wallace 0.330
Arron Afflalo 0.242
Kwame Brown 0.218
===================================================
PREVIOUS SEASON DETROIT PISTONS
And the 2007-08 Pistons; you can see how many of them are not as good this year as they were last year. By the way, Chauncey Billup's latest 2008-09 rating with the Nuggets is .859, so he is down too.
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Quality of Players
2007-08 REGULAR SEASON
Chauncey Billups 0.930
Rasheed Wallace 0.793
Amir Johnson 0.761
Richard Hamilton 0.734
Tayshaun Prince 0.724
Rodney Stuckey 0.648
Antonio McDyess 0.648
Jason Maxiell 0.620
Ronald Murray† 0.586
Jarvis Hayes 0.531
Arron Afflalo 0.486
DETROIT PISTONS
REAL PLAYER PRODUCTION
Quantity of Players
2007-08 REGULAR SEASON
Chauncey Billups 2188.85
Tayshaun Prince 1714.30
Rasheed Wallace 1710.55
Richard Hamilton 1673.60
Antonio McDyess 1394.10
Jason Maxiell 1063.90
Jarvis Hayes 675.60
Rodney Stuckey 627.05
Amir Johnson 530.35
Arron Afflalo 407.35
Ronald Murray† 203.25
DETROIT PISTONS
DEFENDING SUBRATING
Tracked and Hidden Defending
2007-08 REGULAR SEASON
Amir Johnson 0.468
Rasheed Wallace 0.453
Antonio McDyess 0.337
Tayshaun Prince 0.335
Arron Afflalo 0.275
Rodney Stuckey 0.270
Chauncey Billups 0.264
Jason Maxiell 0.245
Richard Hamilton 0.185
Jarvis Hayes 0.151
Ronald Murray† 0.124
The User Guide for Real Player Ratings, and for the Defensive Adjustments, is located here. You must consult the Guide in order to fully understand the ratings and the value of them, and to understand how to make the best use of them.
Post your response to anything on Quest HERE
GIVE US THE JUICE TO PRODUCE REPORTS MORE QUICKLY
Although there is a guaranteed minimum rate of Report production regardless of traffic, IT IS IN YOUR POWER to help double or triple the number of and frequency of Reports. Simply take two or three minutes as often as you can to recommend Quest and post links to Quest on your favorite sports and other sites. The resulting automatic increase of traffic will in turn increase the resources that go in to producing Quest, which in turn speeds up reporting. If you want, e-mail how you helped (include the url of where you posted a link to Quest) and we will throw some Internet love back to where you tell us on the Internet. Thank you.
Here are some quick links that you can use to find a place where you might post a link to Quest and/or to Quest content.
HOLD MOUSE HERE TO EXPAND THIS MENU OF PLACES ON WHICH YOU CAN POST A LINK TO QUEST:
BASKETBALL SITES THAT ARE OPEN FOR CONTENT FROM ANYONE
Note: Beware of "layered" sites. None of the following are layered sites, which are sites that allow contributions from the public only in hard to find, low traffic areas, while the main areas are off limits for public input and are only for a chosen few. All of the following have at least some notable traffic, and all of them allow relatively equal and open participation. The order is from most recommended to least recommended, based on about half a dozen factors.
Bleacher Report Open Posting Site
Inside Hoops NBA Forum
Real GM NBA and Team Forums
Pro Sports Daily NBA Forum
Basketball Forum NBA Forum
Sporting News NBA Forum
Hoops Hype NBA Forum
Armchair GM Open Posting Site
SportsTwo NBA Forum
NBA Dimensions NBA Forum
OTR Basketball Forums NBA Forum
NBA Boards NBA Forum
NBA Wire NBA Forum
KFFL NBA Forum
Note: there are other forums, but they are all very low traffic and activity compared to the ones above.
MESSAGE BOARDS AT HUGE COROPORATIONS
The Fox NBA board is very low traffic, and the MSNBC NBA board doesn't exist anymore. The CBS Sports NBA Message Board is a layered site; you can NOT post topics nor expect to be considered seriously there until you have spent a few years posting there. We do not recommend CBS Sports. So the only real, fully open NBA forum hosted by a big corporation is the ESPN message board. Be forewarned though that the ESPN board is dominated by very young fans who make very short comments. On the other hand, it is a high traffic site, so we won't stop you from posting a Quest link at ESPN if you want to.
ESPN NBA Message Board
GIVE US THE JUICE TO PRODUCE REPORTS MORE QUICKLY
Although there is a guaranteed minimum rate of Report production regardless of traffic, IT IS IN YOUR POWER to help double or triple the number of and frequency of Reports. Simply take two or three minutes as often as you can to recommend Quest and post links to Quest on your favorite sports and other sites. The resulting automatic increase of traffic will in turn increase the resources that go in to producing Quest, which in turn speeds up reporting. If you want, e-mail how you helped (include the url of where you posted a link to Quest) and we will throw some Internet love back to where you tell us on the Internet. Thank you.
Here are some quick links that you can use to find a place where you might post a link to Quest and/or to Quest content.
HOLD MOUSE HERE TO EXPAND THIS MENU OF PLACES ON WHICH YOU CAN POST A LINK TO QUEST:
BASKETBALL SITES THAT ARE OPEN FOR CONTENT FROM ANYONE
Note: Beware of "layered" sites. None of the following are layered sites, which are sites that allow contributions from the public only in hard to find, low traffic areas, while the main areas are off limits for public input and are only for a chosen few. All of the following have at least some notable traffic, and all of them allow relatively equal and open participation. The order is from most recommended to least recommended, based on about half a dozen factors.
Bleacher Report Open Posting Site
Inside Hoops NBA Forum
Real GM NBA and Team Forums
Pro Sports Daily NBA Forum
Basketball Forum NBA Forum
Sporting News NBA Forum
Hoops Hype NBA Forum
Armchair GM Open Posting Site
SportsTwo NBA Forum
NBA Dimensions NBA Forum
OTR Basketball Forums NBA Forum
NBA Boards NBA Forum
NBA Wire NBA Forum
KFFL NBA Forum
Note: there are other forums, but they are all very low traffic and activity compared to the ones above.
MESSAGE BOARDS AT HUGE COROPORATIONS
The Fox NBA board is very low traffic, and the MSNBC NBA board doesn't exist anymore. The CBS Sports NBA Message Board is a layered site; you can NOT post topics nor expect to be considered seriously there until you have spent a few years posting there. We do not recommend CBS Sports. So the only real, fully open NBA forum hosted by a big corporation is the ESPN message board. Be forewarned though that the ESPN board is dominated by very young fans who make very short comments. On the other hand, it is a high traffic site, so we won't stop you from posting a Quest link at ESPN if you want to.
ESPN NBA Message Board
SEARCH THE QUEST FOR THE RING--THE EQUIVALENT OF MORE THAN 13 BOOKS ABOUT BASKETBALL
Custom Search
SEARCH THE 13 BOOKS / 1.3 MILLION WORDSCHAUNCEY BILLUPS JUNE 2004
